How long does a ortofon Blue last?

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1. Hey all,

   Just a quick question. It seems to me that manufacturers estimates on their cartridges stylus life are all over the place, and I'm seeking some examples of real world experience to clear things up.

   Nagaoka claims that performance starts to deteriorate around the 150-200 hour mark on most of their models, but not that the stylus is "worn out". Seems fair given that all but the MP-500 use a .4 x .7 elliptical.

   Ortofon claims up to 1000 hours "without degradation of performance" with the 2M series. I can maybe see this for the Bronze/Black models due to their stylus profiles, but this seems awfully high for the Red/Blue which use an elliptical?

   My logic was that I can expect around 400-500 hours of use before replacing the stylus on nude elliptical cartridges (I have a 2M Blue and an MP-150) if keeping records and styli clean, and with proper setup.

   Is it really possible to get 1000 hours out of an elliptical though? I'd much rather play it safe than shred up my records but I'm very curious.

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2. Probably one needs to look at the point at 200 hours and replace it at 1000 hours depending which manufacturer you believe.

   Too bad there aren't B&M stores with stylus scopes around much anymore or we could visit and get em looked at.

3. Who knows? Not being facetious, nobody knows because the variables are too great.

   Outside of a local shop with a scope (really?) learning to evaluate stylus wear on your own will be your best bet on getting the longest life from your stylus. Again your stylus, because the same stylus won't wear identically on someone else's set up. That's why there may be safe numbers, but the safe numbers may be costing money on premature retirement.

   In a nutshell, here are the options:

   • Retire early and safely
   • local shop with a scope (or fellow audio enthusiast)
   • Push the recommended limit
   • Push the limit until obviously audible
   • DIY something to bring the evaluation closer to home

   
   Lot's of guessing and estimating and evening listening won't tell anyone exactly where the wear is until it's audibly obvious and that's gone too far to be playing on records safely.

   One path among many is to read up on Sparky's Fabulous Stylus Microscope

4. 

   wasclywabbit When the going gets wierd, the wierd turn pro. Subscriber

   1000 hours is the absolute max you're going to get out of any stylus. That would require playing pristine vinyl that's completely dirt free with a perfect tracking setup - conditions that in total are nearly impossible to achieve. 800 hours is the absolute max I would run any stylus, unless you can examine it under a microscope and know what you're looking for. (Specialty cuts like Microline, Shibata, etc. may only be good for 600 hours.) It may start shredding your vinyl before you hear any significant sound degradation.

   Last edited: Dec 19, 2020

5. Tracking force on any profile tip has a huge influence on its life. Expect a reduction of 35-50% of “average” tip life on any VTF over 1.5 grams, compared to 1-1.25 grams. Tip wear goes up logarithmically after 1.25 grams for any profile.

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6. There was a guy running an experiment with an elliptical at 1.2g on a linear tracker with a clean record and hi-rez microscope photos.

   Sadly most people don't have very clean records and the higher the tracking force, the faster the stylus will wear out. NOTE I am not suggesting you under-track the VTF of your styli, as that's a stupid idea for a host of reasons.

   But the fact is, today's styli with VTFs of ~2g or so will wear out faster than a high compliance cart from the 70s or 80s made to track at ~1g. That's reality and this is basically proven by microscope photos.

   It's not unusual to see significant wear on advanced tips that track at ~2g after just 500 hours. Of course some people will run them longer, but by the time they can hear the degradation (often with older ears/diminished hearing) it's too late.

   Here's a pretty good article:

   https://thevinylpress.com/the-finish-line-for-your-phonograph-stylus/

   If you need to track stylus time get a cheap clicker counter or a phone app which is free if you care about your records. Very easy.

7. Anyone ever wired into the On/Off switch a small LCD battery powered Hobbs meter? Of course then you would have to keep a log book (for table and stylus/cartridge) of when you switched in and out a stylus or moved a cartridge across several turntables. Better than guessing though which seems the prevalent method.

8. Lots of variables to consider. Someone already mentioned how cleaning records can extend the life. Also, the stylus shape has a lot to do with how it wears. I've found that elliptical styli wear out quickly while micro ridge/fine line/Shibata can go significantly longer.

   Also, if you have a large record collection and don't play the same thing over and over, risk to your vinyl is minimal even with a slightly worn cart (duh), but every time you play a record, you are inflicting some sort of wear on the entire system.

   I trust my ears. If I'm not hearing any audible degradation, I'm OK with a stylus that has 1000 or more hours on it. But at around 1200, I noticed that the sound of my Grado low output Master started to reveal lots of vinyl noise. That's a sure sign that it's time to replace. Listen for surface noise, additional pops and clicks that were not previously noticeable, check your setup, and then replace/rebuild if necessary. All diamonds are not created equally.

   I also decided that using multiple carts is the way to go so that you can compare their performance in terms of wear over time. I rotate between two tonearms and 4 carts, a luxury afforded by VPI's Unipivot design. Also, I think that Unipivots are kinder to styli, since they are free to find their own stasis assuming that reasonable care has been taken in setup. You're not forcing as much wear on the system since the stylus is free to roam without it being locked in a fixed position. Azimuth does need to be carefully monitored though. This is a theory based solely on experience, so take it for what it is.

   On the other hand, if you have original pressings of classic albums that would be impossible to replace, I'd have a separate tonearm/stylus reserved for those treasures if practical. I don't have many of those recordings other than the 2014 Beatles mono reissues, but I used a different and infrequently used mono setup for those.

9. Yup, less than 10 miles away in another state. But they are borrowing the scope from a customer. Glad to see the link to Sparky's work.

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10. I’m not even sure who would have the expertise to say how many hours of wear are on a stylus and how many left. I’m not sure that anyone ever had.

11. It's pretty straight forward that more tracking force will create more wear but running a cartridge on the low side to extend life is trade off with good and proper sound. I usually settle on the middle of the manufacturer's range for VTF as my starting point. The wear happens pretty slowly and generally I think it's pretty difficult to determine how many actual hours are on the stylus without keeping close documentation. I try to use the sound profile to determine when it's time to replace the stylus. When I hear some "oddness" I get the scope out to check the wear points and use that as the definitive guide to wear and replacement. BTW - I use a Shure SEK-2 for that.

12. That's so true. On the internet I see all kinds of photos taken with microscopes and drawings showing what a worn stylus is theoretically doing to my records.

    But, the truth is that I've never put a record on and said, "Oh yeah, that's damaged from my worn stylus. I can definitely hear the damage."

    It's more typical that I put on a record and say, "I should have replaced that crappy paper record sleeve. I can definitely hear that damage..."

    The other common thing is, "Wow, I don't remember all of those pops and clicks on this record. And that low level surface noise is quite annoying." Wait a second. How many hours do I have on this cartridge?"

    The answer at that point is "Too many."

    But I'm glad there are people that are truly interested in these kinds of things because it's cool, and it's a better use of your time than pornhub.

    James Henriot of Whest offers, “Most (99.9%) ‘audiophiles’ have no idea of what the Shibata line contact profile looks like, so to put a worn one under a 200x microscope is like asking your ‘average Joe’ to remove your kidney with precision.” He notes that the wear pattern is visible ‘face on’ (i.e., front-on) yet virtually all stylus tip images published in audio magazines are taken ‘side on’. Henriot elaborates that to appreciate wear on a modern stylus you must know the original tip profile and be able to measure any wear properly against a known reference image.
    ​

    Not sure I agree with that first statement. I think it was written before the Internet. If not, pfffffft. He's a douche.

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13. I agree with you VTA comments, but at the same time you could make a case that too little tracking force does damage as well if the stylus is bouncing around in the grooves. It could exert excessive force as it ricochets from one part of the groove wall to another or if there's vertical compliance, as it bounces up and down.

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14. I own one and yet to replace it bought it prob 8 years ago. I am not sure how many hours... However the only time I ever bought a stylus was because of something stupid I did or a very badly damaged 78 rpm.

15. Front on is a VERY good way to evaluate stylus wear, it is what I do first, then I look at the wear patches, the front view though tells you very quickly if stylus is unworn or worn out but harder to estimate the middle bit.
    Chris

16. 800 hours is probably fine for a ml or microridge (the same cut), but 1,000 on anything is too much especially ellipticals which are only good for 300 hours. 800 hours is the very best diamonds and the best profiles.
    Chris

17. VTF has a great deal to do with stylus wear on clean records. The rate of wear and VTF, is not a linear relationship; it is logarithmic. The knee where that wear goes vertical is just after 1.25 grams. For all stylus profiles.

    So a 3x7 elliptical tracking at 2.2 grams will wear nearly 3x faster than one tracked at 0.8 grams. Yes, we are talking well designed cantilever compliance here, properly tracking at 0.8 or 2.2 grams.

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18. Agreed. But check out what Peter Ledermann has to say about too little tracking force on the Sound-smith.com website. He makes the case that too little tracking force is the same as digital sampling and my impression is that Ledermann knows what he's talking about.

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19. Well, he is selling Soundsmith.

    I conditioned what I said by making clear “well designed” cantilever suspension. High compliance and proper tracking are NOT mutually exclusive. You can have a light mass cantilever, nimble compliance, low VTF, and keep the stylus tip in constant contact with the grooves at all times.

    Many cart makers did it absolutely successfully in the 1970s and 1980s. Pickering/Stanton, Empire, Shure, ADC, AcuTex, AT all did it with absolute precision.

20. I only looked at one of their budget models, but Soundsmith seems to make light-tracking cartridges, too. Their Otello model is available in a medium compliance or high compliance version. The former tracks at 1.3-1.6 grams while the latter tracks at 1.0-1.2 grams.

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