Nikon z 24-70 2.8 vs f4

What is the forum consensus about Z 24-70 f4 vs 24-70 f2.8

Jun 23, 2021

I know this has been discussed in different YT videos, forums, review sites. But I am not after just corner sharpness(my copy of 24-70 f4 is plenty sharp at the corners), but overall IQ, micro contrast, pop, color, bokeh quality, etc. It is hard to gauge in videos or web sized pictures.

Any thought? If anyone has conducted a side by side test and tell a difference looking at the picture .. like pictures from f2.8 jumps at you vs f4 is like 2D.

Also, is there any benefit going 2.8 w/o VR vs f4 with VR for any low light situation?

Wondering why Nikon would make two lenses with so close picture quality and one costs 2 times the other.

Appreciate any feedback

Ayan

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Kirnbichler • Contributing Member • Posts: 598

Re: What is the forum consensus about Z 24-70 f4 vs 24-70 f2.8

Also, is there any benefit going 2.8 w/o VR vs f4 with VR for any low light situation?

The f4 has no VR, you'll have to rely on IBIS.

Wondering why Nikon would make two lenses with so close picture quality and one costs 2 times the other.

Well, the so-called "trinity" consists of three 2.8 lenses, the 14-24, the 24-70 and the 70-200. Even Nikon accepts, that this is outside the price range of the average photographer, so they have to offer a somewhat more economic alternative.

The 24-70/4 can be considered to be the elementary "kit lens", and Nikons pricing of camera/lens bundles adds to that.

When I got my Z7ii, the body alone cost 2900 €, and the bundle with the 24-70/4 cost just 200 € more.

If having a faster lens, and that "pro" flair of owning "trinity" lenses isn't important to you, get the f4. The image quality is very, really very close to the f2.8.

Re: What is the forum consensus about Z 24-70 f4 vs 24-70 f2.8

1

Neither of those lenses has VR . . .

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OP bokeh-master • Contributing Member • Posts: 734

Re: What is the forum consensus about Z 24-70 f4 vs 24-70 f2.8

Thanks for the correction. Neither has VR, so of course 2.8 helps in low light.

Ayan

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Joop_S • Contributing Member • Posts: 743

Re: What is the forum consensus about Z 24-70 f4 vs 24-70 f2.8

9

I have the f/2.8 and my daughter the f/4. We have make some test shots and shoot with both lenses on a tripod. I can see @ f/4, the f/2.8 is better. But in the range f/5.6-f/11 I can't tell the difference between the 2 lenses looking at the printed result on A3 format. On the iMac you can see I in the corners.

The 2.8 is the better lens, but in real life if you don't often shoot in the f/2.8-f/4.5 range the f/4 is the better choice.

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Straz • Regular Member • Posts: 355

Re: What is the forum consensus about Z 24-70 f4 vs 24-70 f2.8

1

If you need the extra F-stop of brightness, and can accept the added size, weight and cost, the F2.8 is for you. Otherwise, the F4 is preferable.

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ericbowles • Senior Member • Posts: 1,893

Re: What is the forum consensus about Z 24-70 f4 vs 24-70 f2.8

6

bokeh-master wrote:

Thanks for the correction. Neither has VR, so of course 2.8 helps in low light.

Ayan

Yes - but you are splitting hairs because with IBIS, you have largely the same benefit as VR.

VR is more relevant for longer lenses. For lenses that have VR, it is coordinated with IBIS.

The Z 24-70 f/2.8 has benefits beyond simply a faster aperture.   It's optically better than the f/4, but the f/4 is still excellent.  The f/2.8 is useful for a shallow DOF you can't achieve with an f/4 lens.  It is a faster lens, which will help with some low light situations.  But it is also much better without correction, so depending on what program you use for editing, lens correction may or may not be applied.  If correction is not applied, the difference between the two lenses is much more.

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Re: What is the forum consensus about Z 24-70 f4 vs 24-70 f2.8

8

I love the 24-70mm F4 S because it's an S lens that's smaller, light & affordable. I travel and hike often, so it's a joy to babysit. And of course, the cost. LOL

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z2122 • Senior Member • Posts: 2,003

Re: What is the forum consensus about Z 24-70 f4 vs 24-70 f2.8

1

depends on that what you need - for travel I would take the f4 - good, light and in fact there is not much difference between f2.8 and f4. If you want best IQ and you use a Z7, than you will maybe see a difference in real life shots.

I have the f4 and I am happy with that lens (I had the f2.8, but seldom used it @f2.8)

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shuncheung • Veteran Member • Posts: 4,358

Re: What is the forum consensus about Z 24-70 f4 vs 24-70 f2.8

In reply to Joop_S • Jun 23, 2021

Joop_S wrote:

I have the f/2.8 and my daughter the f/4. We have make some test shots and shoot with both lenses on a tripod. I can see @ f/4, the f/2.8 is better. But in the range f/5.6-f/11 I can't tell the difference between the 2 lenses looking at the printed result on A3 format. On the iMac you can see I in the corners.

The 2.8 is the better lens, but in real life if you don't often shoot in the f/2.8-f/4.5 range the f/4 is the better choice.

Here is a LightRoom A/B comparison between the 24-70/2.8 S (left) and 24-70/4 S (right), at 35mm (sorry, I set the f4 lens to 33.5mm so that there is a slight difference). Pictures were captured around the same time of the day but in consecutive days; hence the sunlight is a bit different.

At least I don't see a whole lot of differences even at f4. Of course, if you need f2.8 indoors, only one lens has that available. 

This is the entire scene. The crops are to the right of the clock.

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OP bokeh-master • Contributing Member • Posts: 734

Re: What is the forum consensus about Z 24-70 f4 vs 24-70 f2.8

shuncheung wrote:

Joop_S wrote:

I have the f/2.8 and my daughter the f/4. We have make some test shots and shoot with both lenses on a tripod. I can see @ f/4, the f/2.8 is better. But in the range f/5.6-f/11 I can't tell the difference between the 2 lenses looking at the printed result on A3 format. On the iMac you can see I in the corners.

The 2.8 is the better lens, but in real life if you don't often shoot in the f/2.8-f/4.5 range the f/4 is the better choice.

Here is a LightRoom A/B comparison between the 24-70/2.8 S (left) and 24-70/4 S (right), at 35mm (sorry, I set the f4 lens to 33.5mm so that there is a slight difference). Pictures were captured around the same time of the day but in consecutive days; hence the sunlight is a bit different.

At least I don't see a whole lot of differences even at f4. Of course, if you need f2.8 indoors, only one lens has that available.

This is the entire scene. The crops are to the right of the clock.

Thank you. Appreciate it.. A lot of good information. Is there sample variation in 2.8 version? I heard f4 has variations and luckily I have a good one. Here is one sample from recent trip

Used Nikon C-Pol and light fine sharpening in post, no other adjustment. Actually OOC jpeg was almost identical .. Do you see 2.8 can make it any better?

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shuncheung • Veteran Member • Posts: 4,358

Re: What is the forum consensus about Z 24-70 f4 vs 24-70 f2.8

4

bokeh-master wrote:

Thank you. Appreciate it.. A lot of good information. Is there sample variation in 2.8 version? I heard f4 has variations and luckily I have a good one. Here is one sample from recent trip

IMO, the discussion about sample variation is often exaggerated. Most new Nikkor lenses I purchase are fine with the first sample, and I have used over 50 new Nikkor lenses over the years. (But refurbished lenses are a different story.)

The problem with the 24-70mm/f4 S, and the 14-30mm/f4 S, is its construction. The contracting design seems a bit weak. I am concerned that after a long time, those lenses may get worse due to mechanical issues, but I have had  mine for 2.5 years and so far it is fine.

Used Nikon C-Pol and light fine sharpening in post, no other adjustment. Actually OOC jpeg was almost identical .. Do you see 2.8 can make it any better?

Excuse me for being blunt: using the 24-70mm/f2.8 S will not make the above image any better. What you need are two things:

1. I don't know which direction that building is facing, but that image can benefit from better lighting big time. I.e. either early morning or later afternoon lower light. The direction of the sun is also seasonal. If you live near by, you may need to figure out what time of the year gives you the best light for that location.
2. A perspective-control lens or post processing to correct the converging vertical lines.

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Re: What is the forum consensus about Z 24-70 f4 vs 24-70 f2.8

shuncheung wrote:

Joop_S wrote:

I have the f/2.8 and my daughter the f/4. We have make some test shots and shoot with both lenses on a tripod. I can see @ f/4, the f/2.8 is better. But in the range f/5.6-f/11 I can't tell the difference between the 2 lenses looking at the printed result on A3 format. On the iMac you can see I in the corners.

The 2.8 is the better lens, but in real life if you don't often shoot in the f/2.8-f/4.5 range the f/4 is the better choice.

Here is a LightRoom A/B comparison between the 24-70/2.8 S (left) and 24-70/4 S (right), at 35mm (sorry, I set the f4 lens to 33.5mm so that there is a slight difference). Pictures were captured around the same time of the day but in consecutive days; hence the sunlight is a bit different.

At least I don't see a whole lot of differences even at f4. Of course, if you need f2.8 indoors, only one lens has that available.

This is the entire scene. The crops are to the right of the clock.

I don't disagree with what you've shown but I think it is a bit misleading. Most high end, particularly modern, lenses are going to show pretty similar sharpness and detail around the central (DX) portion. Ricci's youtube videos show remarkably similar performance even between zooms and primes with often only subtle differences at 200% (which suggests just how sophisticated zoom lenses have become).

For most practical purposes, these differences are photographically irrelevant. That is to say that in order to get the best out of these lenses you need to pay exceedingly careful attention to technique, subject, post-processing and printing/display. If you are just posting on FB, or sharing images to family and friends on even a 5K screen (much less and iPad), save your money and work on lighting, composition and subject which will have more impact.

It has long been true in photography that the last 5% of IQ is going to be 2x - 3x the cost. The difference is that Nikon's S lenses have really upped the game to where that last 5-10% is both subtle and elusive.

And for your examples, the differences in these lenses is going to be outside the DX area and maybe even just the far corners and edges; and probably at higher resolutions than the Z6. It's not that your examples are wrong; they just aren't looking at that 5% IQ difference.

One reviewer remarked that the 24-70 2.8S is really designed for the next generation of 60-80mpx sensors and buying it is a kind of future-proofing. Whether any us need 60-80mpx (much less 45mpx) is another discussion.

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Re: What is the forum consensus about Z 24-70 f4 vs 24-70 f2.8

bokeh-master wrote:

Also, is there any benefit going 2.8 w/o VR vs f4 with VR for any low light situation?

No, VR will allow lower shutter speeds handheld than F2.8 will. And you shouldn't compare an F2.8 image with an F4 one due to the different depth of field.

Besides, you have VR on Nikon's 24-70 F2.8 since 2016.

Wondering why Nikon would make two lenses with so close picture quality and one costs 2 times the other.

Pricing depends more on the amount of glass in a lens than IQ.

You shouldn't really compare an F2.8 lens in price to an F4 lens. The images you get are usually different wide open. See 300F2.8 and 300F4 or 500F4 and 500F5.6. Similar IQ, much different pricing. Put both lenses on a tripod in a situation where shutter speed doesn't matter, and you can shoot with either lower ISO or a (desired) shallower depth of field for subject isolation.  People pay a lot extra for that subject isolation, and a little more for the extra light gathering ability.

Appreciate any feedback

It might help if you mention which 24-70F2.8 lens you are comparing to the new Z. The non-VR 24-70g hasn't been made for some years now.

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OP bokeh-master • Contributing Member • Posts: 734

Re: What is the forum consensus about Z 24-70 f4 vs 24-70 f2.8

1

PHXAZCRAIG wrote:

bokeh-master wrote:

Also, is there any benefit going 2.8 w/o VR vs f4 with VR for any low light situation?

No, VR will allow lower shutter speeds handheld than F2.8 will. And you shouldn't compare an F2.8 image with an F4 one due to the different depth of field.

Besides, you have VR on Nikon's 24-70 F2.8 since 2016.

Wondering why Nikon would make two lenses with so close picture quality and one costs 2 times the other.

Pricing depends more on the amount of glass in a lens than IQ.

You shouldn't really compare an F2.8 lens in price to an F4 lens. The images you get are usually different wide open. See 300F2.8 and 300F4 or 500F4 and 500F5.6. Similar IQ, much different pricing. Put both lenses on a tripod in a situation where shutter speed doesn't matter, and you can shoot with either lower ISO or a (desired) shallower depth of field for subject isolation. People pay a lot extra for that subject isolation, and a little more for the extra light gathering ability.

Appreciate any feedback

It might help if you mention which 24-70F2.8 lens you are comparing to the new Z. The non-VR 24-70g hasn't been made for some years now.

I am referring to the Z version.

This is a great point. Subject isolation and rendering changes between 1.8 to 1.4 or to 1.2. Also, depending on how the lens is designed - for creamier bokeh or absolute sharpness. Sometimes creamier bokeh renders better IQ than absolute sharpness, think portraiture. I can easily see a difference between 85 1.8 z lens to much older 85 1.4 F mount lens ..

If 2.8 shows that kind of difference, maybe I can use 2.8 as landscape and portrait and use 85 1.2 (yet to release) for serious portraiture work.

Ayan

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z2122 • Senior Member • Posts: 2,003

Re: What is the forum consensus about Z 24-70 f4 vs 24-70 f2.8

bokeh-master wrote:

PHXAZCRAIG wrote:

bokeh-master wrote:

Also, is there any benefit going 2.8 w/o VR vs f4 with VR for any low light situation?

No, VR will allow lower shutter speeds handheld than F2.8 will. And you shouldn't compare an F2.8 image with an F4 one due to the different depth of field.

Besides, you have VR on Nikon's 24-70 F2.8 since 2016.

Wondering why Nikon would make two lenses with so close picture quality and one costs 2 times the other.

Pricing depends more on the amount of glass in a lens than IQ.

You shouldn't really compare an F2.8 lens in price to an F4 lens. The images you get are usually different wide open. See 300F2.8 and 300F4 or 500F4 and 500F5.6. Similar IQ, much different pricing. Put both lenses on a tripod in a situation where shutter speed doesn't matter, and you can shoot with either lower ISO or a (desired) shallower depth of field for subject isolation. People pay a lot extra for that subject isolation, and a little more for the extra light gathering ability.

Appreciate any feedback

It might help if you mention which 24-70F2.8 lens you are comparing to the new Z. The non-VR 24-70g hasn't been made for some years now.

I am referring to the Z version.

This is a great point. Subject isolation and rendering changes between 1.8 to 1.4 or to 1.2. Also, depending on how the lens is designed - for creamier bokeh or absolute sharpness. Sometimes creamier bokeh renders better IQ than absolute sharpness, think portraiture. I can easily see a difference between 85 1.8 z lens to much older 85 1.4 F mount lens ..

If 2.8 shows that kind of difference, maybe I can use 2.8 as landscape and portrait and use 85 1.2 (yet to release) for serious portraiture work.

Ayan

I had a f2.8 lens on my D750 for many years and I checked how many pictures I took @f2.8 and thsi was below 3% . The bokeh difference between f2.8 and f4 @70mm is not that big ( can be easily compensated if you have change the distance to the background) As suggested a 85 f1.8 makes really a difference when it cones to bokeh.

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shuncheung • Veteran Member • Posts: 4,358

Re: What is the forum consensus about Z 24-70 f4 vs 24-70 f2.8

Virtual Photon wrote:

shuncheung wrote:

Here is a LightRoom A/B comparison between the 24-70/2.8 S (left) and 24-70/4 S (right), at 35mm (sorry, I set the f4 lens to 33.5mm so that there is a slight difference). Pictures were captured around the same time of the day but in consecutive days; hence the sunlight is a bit different.

At least I don't see a whole lot of differences even at f4. Of course, if you need f2.8 indoors, only one lens has that available.

And for your examples, the differences in these lenses is going to be outside the DX area and maybe even just the far corners and edges; and probably at higher resolutions than the Z6. It's not that your examples are wrong; they just aren't looking at that 5% IQ difference.

I am posting more center crops here because I have already posted the edge/corner ones in earlier posts. They are from the same set of test images I took:

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/65255187

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/65252359

Over there I have included not only the 24-70/2.8 S and 24-70/4 S, but also the 24-200mm, 35mm/1.8 S and the F-mount Sigma 35mm/f1.4 Art, which was supposed to be excellent, at least before mirrorless came along.

I think the small change in the intensity of the sunlight makes a far bigger difference than the two 24-70 zooms. The sun was stronger when I used the 24-70/4 S so that the contrast is higher. It may give the impression that it is sharper.

One reviewer remarked that the 24-70 2.8S is really designed for the next generation of 60-80mpx sensors and buying it is a kind of future-proofing. Whether any us need 60-80mpx (much less 45mpx) is another discussion.

I think that is merely BS. Way back in 2012, I tested the 36MP D800 and D800E very thoroughly. At the time 36MP was a novelty, but I quickly realized that even at f8, diffraction had begun to be an issue, and it gets worse at f11. If for whatever reason you need more pixels, I would go to the so called "medium format" such as the Fuji G. Otherwise, if we squeeze more pixels onto FX, when you get diffraction at f4, f5.6, there will be no more optimal aperture for your expensive lenses.

Since I have both the f2.8 and f4 24-70 S, I don't prefer one over the other, but the weight from the f2.8 bothers me a bit when I travel. As I have said a few times, I save my weight quota for my 500mm/f5.6 PF, 80-400mm zoom, etc. On the other hand, I still question the "retract" design of the 24-70/4 S. I am concerned that mechanism can wear out after a few years, although my lens is still fine after 2.5 years.

But if I shoot an indoor party, I by far prefer to have f2.8 available.

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Re: What is the forum consensus about Z 24-70 f4 vs 24-70 f2.8

1

shuncheung wrote:

Virtual Photon wrote:

shuncheung wrote:

Here is a LightRoom A/B comparison between the 24-70/2.8 S (left) and 24-70/4 S (right), at 35mm (sorry, I set the f4 lens to 33.5mm so that there is a slight difference). Pictures were captured around the same time of the day but in consecutive days; hence the sunlight is a bit different.

At least I don't see a whole lot of differences even at f4. Of course, if you need f2.8 indoors, only one lens has that available.

And for your examples, the differences in these lenses is going to be outside the DX area and maybe even just the far corners and edges; and probably at higher resolutions than the Z6. It's not that your examples are wrong; they just aren't looking at that 5% IQ difference.

I am posting more center crops here because I have already posted the edge/corner ones in earlier posts. They are from the same set of test images I took:

Ah.  Thanks.

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/65255187

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/65252359

Over there I have included not only the 24-70/2.8 S and 24-70/4 S, but also the 24-200mm, 35mm/1.8 S and the F-mount Sigma 35mm/f1.4 Art, which was supposed to be excellent, at least before mirrorless came along.

I think the small change in the intensity of the sunlight makes a far bigger difference than the two 24-70 zooms. The sun was stronger when I used the 24-70/4 S so that the contrast is higher. It may give the impression that it is sharper.

One reviewer remarked that the 24-70 2.8S is really designed for the next generation of 60-80mpx sensors and buying it is a kind of future-proofing. Whether any us need 60-80mpx (much less 45mpx) is another discussion.

I think that is merely BS. Way back in 2012, I tested the 36MP D800 and D800E very thoroughly. At the time 36MP was a novelty, but I quickly realized that even at f8, diffraction had begun to be an issue, and it gets worse at f11. If for whatever reason you need more pixels, I would go to the so called "medium format" such as the Fuji G. Otherwise, if we squeeze more pixels onto FX, when you get diffraction at f4, f5.6, there will be no more optimal aperture for your expensive lenses.

I don't disagree.

Since I have both the f2.8 and f4 24-70 S, I don't prefer one over the other, but the weight from the f2.8 bothers me a bit when I travel. As I have said a few times, I save my weight quota for my 500mm/f5.6 PF, 80-400mm zoom, etc. On the other hand, I still question the "retract" design of the 24-70/4 S. I am concerned that mechanism can wear out after a few years, although my lens is still fine after 2.5 years.

OTOH, it is a $500 (as a kit) lens.  The cost over time is less if you have to replace it. - I think the jury is out on how durable all these Z lenses are over the long term.  We'll know if they continue to hold their value over 5-10 years.

But if I shoot an indoor party, I by far prefer to have f2.8 available.

Of course.  Gimme that stop!

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Re: What is the forum consensus about Z 24-70 f4 vs 24-70 f2.8

11

bokeh-master wrote:

I know this has been discussed in different YT videos, forums, review sites. But I am not after just corner sharpness(my copy of 24-70 f4 is plenty sharp at the corners), but overall IQ, micro contrast, pop, color, bokeh quality, etc. It is hard to gauge in videos or web sized pictures.

Any thought? If anyone has conducted a side by side test and tell a difference looking at the picture .. like pictures from f2.8 jumps at you vs f4 is like 2D.

Also, is there any benefit going 2.8 w/o VR vs f4 with VR for any low light situation?

Wondering why Nikon would make two lenses with so close picture quality and one costs 2 times the other.

Appreciate any feedback

Ayan

I have both lenses.

Optically they aren't that far apart. The f4 is truly outstanding and I find it superior to my previous 24-70 2.8G VR and non VR lenses. Quite an accomplishment from Nikon. This is no mere "kit lens." It's a seriously good performing lens by any metric.

So how much better is my 24-70 2.8 S? Bigger, heavier, a bit quicker to focus, slightly sharper, especially wide open. Sharper by a hair in the center and more at the edges.  This is not just about sharpness though. At 70mm at 2.8, you also get a better portrait lens with better subject isolation and bokeh. This happens at all focal lengths of course, and I wanted to point that out above and beyond the low light advantages. The faster lens also has a tiny advantage in micro contrast, but that's for pixel peepers to worry about.

The reality is that, given the huge ISO latitude we get these days, the F4 lens is truly usable indoors and out. You CAN shoot a wedding nicely at F4 and you'll have a more manageable package. Is the 2.8 S better? Sure. Do you need it? Hmmm. Do you want it? Hmmm.

Honestly...I didn't need the 2.8 S. I wanted it. And that's okay too.

Robert

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Re: What is the forum consensus about Z 24-70 f4 vs 24-70 f2.8

I own both Z lenses.

Right now I consider Nikon provides 2 S choices.

The f4 has very good optical quality etc.

The f2.8 is better built with Arneo coating and has f2.8 - for about 150% more money in the UK.

When the 24-105 S arrives I am likely to trade the 24-70 f4 for a more versatile zoom range.

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It's finally here! Chris and Jordan have been shooting with a production Fujifilm X-H2S for several weeks and their final review is here. Did Jordan just call this 'One of the best hybrid cameras ever made?' Watch to find out more.

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